Monday, February 23, 2009

Kiru’s theory on Creation and Creator….

I have always been ambivalent about the “Natural selection of species” and the “intelligent design” philosophies.

Quote form TOI article (analogy to argue that “Natural selection of species cannot be true...)

An often used analogy borrowed from a remark by physicist Fred Hoyle is that of a hurricane sweeping through a junk yard and by random chance assembling a Boeing 747: it just can't happen. Therefore, there has to be a Boeing Engineer, a God working His intelligent design from behind the scenes.

So here’s my two cents that help us explore the relation between creator and creations. My own logical creativity…

Let’s shift our focus from how human species was created to what humans are creating today and what might be possible in future? Atleast in this context predicting the future looks easier than understanding the past…And that’s the reason for me to shift the focus into future to understand evolution…Trying to understand the past better by predicting the future…

We are at an important phase of the evolution wherein we tend to believe that we are not very far off from creating machines that are intelligent, self learning and possibly capable of emoting.

In future, we might develop human like robot with AI self learning algorithms. Assuming that I develop a self learning algorithm that could be downloaded onto a Robot, few questions that I would like to ask all you readers...

  1. Just because I created the self learning algorithm, does it mean that I can precisely predict every move or the behavior of the ROBOT?
  2. Is there a possibility for me to destroy the ROBOT completely (Say on press of the CTRL+ALT+DEL button) when I realize the fact that the ROBOT that I have created is a threat to my own existence?
  3. What are the chances that this reasoning ROBOT thinks that its behavior is been controlled by some other unknown entity?
  4. When the ROBOT is able to completely understand the algorithm with which it is made of, what is the difference between me and the ROBOT (or in other words the creator and the creation..)
  5. When the ROBOT has completely understood the algorithm with which it is made of what are the chances that it creates a new species from thereon?
  6. Is the ROBOTs self learning algorithm, just a transferred piece of my mind or is it something more than that?
  7. If I create a chess algorithm and play against the same does that mean that I will always win against the algorithm. Any logical guesses on the probability of who will win?

Exploration with deep introspection for all the above questions will help us realize the connection between the human species and nature, the reason for evolution of concepts such as FATE, ASTROLOGY, GOD etc., To some extent this also helps us explain the need for religion..

Post in your views to all these questions in the comments section and let us explore this further in the next post….

9 comments:

Deepak Venkataraman said...

1. Just because I created the self learning algorithm, does it mean that I can precisely predict every move or the behavior of the ROBOT?
Absolutely not possible
2. Is there a possibility for me to destroy the ROBOT completely (Say on press of the CTRL+ALT+DEL button) when I realize the fact that the ROBOT that I have created is a threat to my own existence?
Yes Of Course
3. What are the chances that this reasoning ROBOT thinks that its behavior is been controlled by some other unknown entity?
It MAY try to destroy the unknown entity
4. When the ROBOT is able to completely understand the algorithm with which it is made of, what is the difference between me and the ROBOT (or in other words the creator and the creation..)
ROBOT can create an another kind of ROBOT with same algorithm but not precision with which it was created by me(Creator). Eg Cloning of human species;
5. When the ROBOT has completely understood the algorithm with which it is made of what are the chances that it creates a new species from thereon?
ROBOT with a kine of Super Power with extra ordinary intelligence and so on
6. Is the ROBOTs self learning algorithm, just a transferred piece of my mind or is it something more than that?
something more than that....
7. If I create a chess algorithm and play against the same does that mean that I will always win against the algorithm. Any logical guesses on the probability of who will win?
Not sure. It depends on how good the algoithm was designed. But my guess is I cannot win against the algorithm.

itsvens said...

kiru...
why cannot we create a better wheel (other than circle) or better fire or better water?
forget creating a new species, have we done enough to comprehend ourseves?

Naren said...

Kiru,
firstly, on your "Boeing 747"......we cannot win/prove/state the argument by trying to make cheeky statements...it has got to be an informed speculation/contemplation.

secondly, various schools of thought exist on creation mechanisms among religion and science. the most acceptable statement that i read was from Carl Sagan's Cosmos. he says Hinduism's creation theory of universe ...Brahma(universe) was born from a egg (bing-bang) comes closest to explain the current popular scientific "theory".

but with respect evolution of life on earth, there exists theories like endo-genesis/exo-genesis/macro-evolution/micro-evolution.
most religious or scientific schools of thought are formed around these concepts.

that being said...i will not get into the "20 questions" rigmarole.
instead of basing it on human creating an AI, base on how do parents and kids interact during the course of life. you will now see that each of your question will have a different answer from an different person. so we know the kind of permutations we are up against.

in the end...any progeny, genetic or artificial, will become what its base genetic/behavioral code is impinged upon by its environment.
if the creator constantly drives towards attaining perfection, so will the progeny.

i believe humans are still largely under-evolved and emotionally driven (r-complex part of the brain)...so we can guess, how our kids(genetic/artificial) will turn out.

mskiruba said...

@Deepak - Thanks for giving it a thought to each of the questions..

@Venki - as usual digressing from the topic but yet thoughtful.

@Naren - Lots of Jargons out there in your comment. Let me do a research on all those before I publish my next post.

bharathi said...

First of all, Thanks to Kiru for sharing his diverse analysis about special things around us.

This is one of the interesting topics, which I’d like to share my thoughts with you all.

If you mean the Self Learning Robot is 100% equivalent to a human brain, then answers are
1. No. You can’t predict the behavior
2. May be…but 50-50 Chance, depends on physical,experience,etc
3. 100% - It’ll understand that somebody controls him - down the line some time
4. Self learning is the toughest job in the world. If your Robot is able to understand its own algorithm and then the difference is, it has completed the toughest job earlier than you.
5. It is obvious.
6. You can’t decide. It depends on how its learning and responding..if it performs well then we call it is brilliant otherwise shit.
7. Once again No. if you created the chess algorithm equivalent to your brain, then chances are 50-50.


If you mean the Self Learning Robot is 99.9999999999% equivalent to a human brain, then answers are

1. Yes. You can predict the behavior
2. Yes. You can destroy
3. No. it can be controlled and not to think about it
4. You always laugh about it
5. No
6. It’s your piece of mind..not complete
7. Ofcourse, you’ll win


Okie..Here are my examples to support the above answers
100% Equivalent
(Human Child) 99.99999% Equivalent
(Best Super Computer ) -Assumption
Predict Behaviour- No- Yes
CTRL + ALT + DEL- May be 50-50- Yes
Controlled by someone- Yes – after 18 years- No
Self Learning- May be faster than you- No
Creation- Yes – Next Generation- No
Transfer of your mind- How do you call your son- Piece of cake
Chess- He might win- You’ll win

Humans have been evolving more than million years and we have been always agreeing that our next generation is better than ours.

This is because of our more sophisticated brain capacity to handle more information and process it and create new stuffs.

Big Question - How to Achieve
Human Brain [SOURCE: WIKI] -Self Learning Robot
10^9 Neurons- Unlimited Chips required
100 Trillion Signals- Unlimited Power required
1.5 Kg- Unlimited in Size required
Unknown Algorithm (Black Hole)- Unknown Algorithm
Limited Lifecycle- Unlimited Lifecycle [Made in Platinum]
More Intelligent and less life- Less Intelligent and more life

I wish to see an AI equivalent to Human, because it can survive as long as earth can survive and carries our prints forever.

Interestingly, it’s easy for us to achieve 100% than 99.9999999% ……. 

Okie...Coming back to you theory on relation btw Creation and Creator, Nature is the best example to study more about it.

Naren said...

hi bharathi,
can you elaborate a little more on how u arrived at "easy for us to achieve 100% than 99.9999999%".

As of today the hardware is getting saturated at 965 million transistors on "Intel Core i7". Moore's Law is becoming obsolete.

Also, we have not completely understood the brain from a working model, per se.

On a theoretical level Roger Penrose's "Emperor's New Mind" states there still no unification theory between classical and quantum physics.

Hell...we still call 74% of the universe as Dark Matter...since we cannot explain it.

Deep Blue may be the best chess program around...but it still works on probabilities...but not on subconscious instincts.

With all these constraints, we are at least a few centuries way from have a child's representation of AI.

Apart from these...the AI has to finally pass the Turing's Test while still working within the purview of Assimov's three rules.

Without meeting all these unknowables...there cannot be a acceptable culmination of AI technology.

So I don't know if we could reach 10% of human mind's capacity...tentatively speaking.

What do you think?

chandra mouli said...

Hi
I dont know nothing about Artificial Intelligence or possibilities of ROBO Understanding the Algorithm by the creator but in retrospect ,the evolution of human being was from a single Common Ancestor(LUCA THEORY,LAST UNIVERSAL COMMON ANCESTOR)and Charles Darwin was perfectly right with his Hypothesis(experiments and gene sequencing technology asserts our genesequence is 99% similar to Chimps). so as a biologists{(not an expertise(:}i firmly believe and stand with Charles Darwin (who was also given the most honourable award received only by 3 scientists so far).So creation is all by accumulation and survival of fittest(arrival of the fittest too).so nature by itself selects species which adapts itself (another perfect example a sperm being selected from more than 250 million sperms injected into vaginal vault in less than a time period of 90 minutes from within 16 fittest sperms). So the universe is a chaotic entity limited to time and space. Nature is an inconceivable phenomena which cannot be perceived to ordinary humanminds. So even if you develop a perfect algorithm designed by worlds most intelligent designers to create a ROBO which self learns quickly and reasons the creator,it cannot Surpass a species evolved slowly 250000 years ago and create an another species of its own family.The possibilities are that the creator(you- belonging to Homosapiens,evolved 250000 years ago)will evolve much more stronger and intelligent than the ROBO if it reasons itself and attempts to dominate the creator.

itsvens said...

I fully agree with you chandra mouli. I am a strong believer in history.
also kiru.... one more fact is
you will need to dig a pit to create a mountain. so think again!!!

mskiruba said...

Chandramouli,

Fantastic.. I am of the same opinion too.. I am could sense a instantaneous resonation of our thoughts

I share same thoughts as you on the below aspects..

1. Accumulation and survival of the fittest
2. Nature - inconceivable phenomena
3. ROBOTS cannot surpass creator (humans)..

I know that the scenario that I am talking about is highly fictitious as you have pointed out in your comment. But then, the very reason behind why I have put forward these questions is to comprehend ourselves better as a creation. And reason out why we few fall prey to few superstitious beliefs..

The last but two lines in my post is the objective behind this whole exploration..

My intention was to make people realize that "Our life is in our own hands". Don't pledge it to external entities.. You and you alone are responsible for whatever that happens to you. Reasoning and confidence is the best possession that we all could have given the fact that we are such an evolved species….

- Kiru